French born Soraya Ramoul is Novo Nordisk’ Global Health Policy director, and despite of a very busy schedule, she kindly accepted to give us a few insightful takeaways from her experience as a woman in a leader position in Denmark as well as her perspective about workplace gender equality.
Soraya, have you noticed differences between France and Denmark in terms of gender equality at work? Well, most of my career has been in Denmark, so it might be difficult for me to compare to France. France has made significant progress towards gender equality in recent decades, but of course, Scandinavian countries are very progressive in terms of career opportunities for women. In my own organization, we have a rather equal distribution of men and women, especially at line managerial levels. It is thus possible to reconcile career and family life with adequate support systems. But when it comes to top management, it is another story - even if things are moving on, they move slowly.
Why is it so do you think? It is a complex and very interesting question, and there is no easy answer.. I think that there are multiple factors explaining why you find very few women in top management positions.
First of all, being in a top management position demands huge sacrifices in terms of social and family life. I am not sure that women considering those positions are willing to fully compromise with their family life. Furthermore, women maybe have a tendency to want to keep control and excel - in all levels. They want to be that super leader, as well as the perfect wife or girlfriend, and of course the super mum. And well, it is not going to happen - unless you are ready to let go. You won´t be excelling at all levels. I do not know any men or women being capable of that. You have to be realistic. So, no, you won´t be the one picking up at 4pm. You probably will not be able to participate as much as you would like to in many events in your family´s life, etc. The good thing today is that more and more fathers play an active role, but it still demands that you let them do that. And it
also makes sense to gain precious time by leaving all the practical things of your life in someone´s else hands, if you have the possibility to do so.
But do you not think that society is still quite judgmental on women with a career that are not a 100% present for their kids? Yes, there are still people - men and women - who will never raise an eyebrow if the father is a busy career man, but will definitely be questioning women doing the same. Still, I think the judgment of other people can to some extent be ignored, but what about your own? What about your expectation to yourself as a mum, a wife, etc.? Another barrier that we identify is regarding “succession management”. (The process of spotting and recruiting leaders by developing their knowledge, skills, and abilities, and prepare them for advancement or promotion into ever more challenging roles in the organization, red). It often takes place in unofficial networks, where women are largely underrepresented. I would say that women are simply too far from social networking circles. On an individual plan, we should spend more time in those networks. It gives us a chance to hear about positions that are not even officially open yet as well as profiling ourselves. It surely takes time to participate, but I think it is crucial for our career. At an organizational level, there are many activities proven to increase
gender diversity such as spotting early talents, mentorship programs, etc. However, it is not easy to destroy those barriers and it actually demands a lot of transparency and proactive efforts from companies if they do wish a more diverse management group.
Are there other barriers, which, according to you, prevent women from jobs in top management? A very important one: Women need be self-confident. What we can see is that many women are questioning themselves much more than the men will do. Men´s reaction facing a challenging task is: why not? I have the competencies; I can do it, where women´s reaction will be questioning themselves right away: am I competent enough? Do I have the required experience? Generally, as for men, they definitely are competent, but they tend to doubt themselves more. It is of course a generalization and is only based on my personal experience.
So your message for women aspiring to top management positions will be believe in yourself? Yes, and the good thing is that there are more women in those key positions, so you can get inspiration on how they deal with it.
One last question, Soraya. Are you for or against gender quotas? (A big sigh)
I really have been thinking a lot about it, and even if I sometimes get frustrated because I think things are going too slowly, I am not very fond of the idea. I could never accept the idea that I ´ve been hired because my employer needs to fulfill some quotas. I want my competencies to be recognized, that´s it, so I guess I would rather talk about incitements rather than gender quotas. But, that being said, it might be interesting to follow Sweden´s example regarding maternity leaves. I think it does penalize women to be away from work for almost a whole year as it is the case in my own company. It is difficult to keep the professional relations updated, and we all know how crucial they are for our careers. In the long term, it can be a big issue. It is the reason why I think that part of a long maternity leave should be reserved for men.
Thanks so much for your inputs, Soraya!